Dance, consent, and nostalgia as method

[Intro music]

00:00

Lalita du Perron: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the 2025–26 academic year. We're a little early—this podcast will probably drop early September (famous last words)—and our academic year doesn't start until the end of September. We want to get everybody in the mood and ready for another year of SASSPOD. So I'm very excited to have a guest with whom I am working right now, preparing a panel that we're presenting at the annual Conference on South Asia, which will be held in Madison in October, as it is every year.

00:26

Lalita du Perron: My guest today on the SassPod is Preethi Ramaprasad, who is a transnational dancer, musician, and researcher based in San Francisco. Preethi has a PhD in Critical Dance Studies from the University of California, Riverside, and her research focuses on politics and representation in the performance of myth among transnational Bharatanatyam practitioners.

01:00

Lalita du Perron: Her Bharatanatyam choreography centers around experimenting with Bharatanatyam as a transnational dancer through poetry, community building, and storytelling.

01:14

Lalita du Perron: We're going to be talking about all of these things and more today. Ramaprasad co-curates the Varnam Salon, an intimate space for sharing Bharatanatyam choreography; Performing Voices of Bhakti, a platform for artists to perform radical South Asian poetry; and San Francisco's first South Asian Choreography Festival, When I Speak, which will produce its fifth show this October. We'll link to all these platforms in the show notes. Preethi, you're so busy—I don't know how you found time to talk to me today on the podcast, but I'm so grateful you did.

01:51

Preethi Ramaprasad: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to chat with you today. Like always—I love chatting with you.

01:58

Lalita du Perron: Thank you. So, for the audience—Preethi and I, I don't even know how we met—but we kind of inhabit the same space of people who study South Asian dance in different ways, in a very broad context. I'm not a dancer at all, but we try to think about it critically. The first thing I want to talk about today is this panel we're working on for the Madison conference. There's so much to talk about, and I'm just very curious how our podcast audience—and the Madison audience, and there’ll be some overlap—will help us think through these issues around consent. So, do you want to start off very broadly framing the consent panel and what we're trying to do in it?

02:46

Preethi Ramaprasad: I'm happy to. I also want the audience to hear you frame it too, because you're the person who brought the word “consent” to me in our discussion, and I was very excited to discuss it further with you. I'm very excited to be in a panel that discusses consent at the Madison South Asia Conference.

03:05

Preethi Ramaprasad: This is where you, Lalita, will discuss tombries and consent. I will be discussing the performance of Sringara in Bharatanatyam dance and consent. Harshita Kamath—whom I quote so much in my writing—will be discussing the notion of authorship and consent in Telugu padams, and Ramya Pucha—whose new project I think is related to yoga—will be talking about bodily autonomy and consent in yoga spaces.

03:45

Preethi Ramaprasad: I think it's going to be a very interesting conversation, and it will also just be a start. There’s no end to a discussion that centers the notion of consent.

04:09

Preethi Ramaprasad: My entry point is my research and dissertation. It's been about how Bharatanatyam dancers often use Hindu iconography and mythologies in choreography—even for themes not related to mythology or the epics. Mythologies seem to be a thruway to discuss contemporary or social justice subjects.

04:39

Preethi Ramaprasad: I’ve been curious about moments where these gods and goddesses may not always be ideal figures. How do they fit into this framework that Bharatanatyam dancers use?

04:54

Preethi Ramaprasad: I've worked with dancers who are either trying to confront these myths, or who use myths as a lens for life, and what happens when they go against mythologies.

05:15

Preethi Ramaprasad: I'm also interested in how dancers use the language of Bharatanatyam to discuss these subjects without mythologies at all. I'm looking at all of these permutations and combinations in my work.

05:36

Preethi Ramaprasad: Since graduating, I’ve been in the studio a lot, working with different dancers. It’s enlightening to see dancers who want to talk about feminism, motherhood, climate, etc., and often the thruway is through a goddess.

06:00

Preethi Ramaprasad: Sometimes I suggest putting the goddess aside for a moment. What is it that you're idealizing? It's enlightening to see how dancers idealize goddesses and how that affects their perspective on dance, their bodies, and how they move through the world.

06:27

Preethi Ramaprasad: When I look at the concept of consent, I ask: is letting go of these mythologies a step toward creating safer spaces for us?

06:42

Preethi Ramaprasad: And how do we honor how we learned these arts? I’ve learned Bharatanatyam and Carnatic music since childhood. How do we honor the past while making way for a future where kids can learn these arts in the safest world we can create? How does myth factor into that? How do we reimagine myth in that context?

07:09

Preethi Ramaprasad: I'm fascinated by how the figure of Krishna intersects with the discussion of consent. That will feature in this panel. And how feminine goddesses like Shakti, Devi, Kali, etc., inform notions of femininity and feminism.

07:34

Preethi Ramaprasad: I don’t have any right answers, but I am interested in how each dancer brings their perspective into their choreography.

07:50

Lalita du Perron: I have to thank you—this was absolutely amazing. I couldn't have said any of this better myself.

07:59

Lalita du Perron: And you saying I brought the word “consent” into your work is probably the biggest compliment I’ve ever had. That’s mind-blowingly amazing.

08:14

Lalita du Perron: Do you think these discussions are different in the diaspora, or are similar conversations happening in India itself?

08:32

Preethi Ramaprasad: It’s hard to say. I’m a member of the diaspora—I live in the U.S., I was born and raised here, but my teacher and dance class are in Chennai. I go back frequently, but I can only speak from my own experience.

08:57

Preethi Ramaprasad: I do think these conversations are happening in both places. There are known instances of lack of consent in student-teacher dynamics in dance spaces. It begs the question: how does the practice itself inform the safety of the space?

09:33

Preethi Ramaprasad: The people I’ve interviewed are mostly asking: how can I get my daughter to learn these forms in a safe environment?

10:01

Preethi Ramaprasad: It’s not just about not being harmed—that’s the bare minimum. They want their child to be celebrated, to love themselves, to not be forced into molds.

10:31

Preethi Ramaprasad: I think being in practice and working with dancers is helping me see the connection between valuing your body and consent.

10:57

Lalita du Perron: So powerful. As the mom of a teenage son, we have these discussions—much more than he’d like, no doubt—but so important, right?

11:08

Preethi Ramaprasad: Absolutely.

11:09

Lalita du Perron: It becomes very difficult though. Talking about consent in the day-to-day is one thing. In dance and spiritual spaces, there have been endless revelations around so-called spiritual gurus abusing their female students.

11:46

Lalita du Perron: I think this is more “discussable” than mythology. Most people agree that abuse of power is wrong. That no means no. There may be debate around gray areas, but we can mostly talk about it without much controversy.

12:05

Lalita du Perron: However…

12:05

Preethi Ramaprasad: When you're talking about mythology and bringing in religious feeling, it becomes very different.

12:14

Preethi Ramaprasad: It's very difficult, especially in today’s fraught political environment, to talk about religion and consent.

12:25

Preethi Ramaprasad: And I also want to say here that we can't talk—you can't talk—about consent and gender and dance in the South Asian context without bringing up caste.

12:35

Preethi Ramaprasad: And while it's not my area of expertise, it certainly comes up in my writing, and I cite authors and activists who note these ideas of consent in dance, and...

12:56

Preethi Ramaprasad: how courtesan dancers bring up consent in different pieces. There's a Tamil padam that's not to a religious figure—there's a Tamil song where the singer says, "I agreed to this."

13:14

Preethi Ramaprasad: She says, "I agreed to do this, so why is everyone talking about me?" This is a question that she asks her friend.

13:25

Preethi Ramaprasad: The context of the piece is that this woman—the protagonist—is noticing that everyone is talking about her, and it's because she's dating some guy or she's with someone who's a victor in a war, and she's like, "Why should I be afraid of what everyone is saying?"

13:49

Preethi Ramaprasad: I consented to this, and this is my thing, you know? So there have been...

13:54

Preethi Ramaprasad: courtesan pieces that note consent.

14:01

Preethi Ramaprasad: There's more than one. This is just one that popped into my head. And I think people who discuss caste and gender and dance talk about this. But I think when it comes to mythology, it's very difficult, because you're like...

14:18

Preethi Ramaprasad: well, it comes down to a character, and a character is part of a collective imagination. And so that is what I find very exciting as a researcher, and I also find it interesting as a choreographer, because I'm like, "Is there only one way to portray a character?" is the question, right? And the answer is...

14:42

Preethi Ramaprasad: with Bharatanatyam, some of these characters—how we imagine them—has been handed down generation to generation, and so now, it's very difficult to picture someone in a different way. But it's an imagined—it’s part of a collective imagination. Now, there are numerous texts, vernacular texts...

15:04

Preethi Ramaprasad: and other Sanskrit texts that describe things that these figures have done, and so on. But...

15:12

Preethi Ramaprasad: how does that figure enter our imagination? And it's by watching dancers of different generations performing them. And then so finally, you have certain stereotypes of characters, right? So you have Krishna, who's known as kind of like a player or a flirt, right? And then you have people who are interrogating...

15:37

Preethi Ramaprasad: well, is Krishna—like, is consent something that is seen when Krishna is with...

15:45

Preethi Ramaprasad: Radha in XYZ piece? Or in this particular Shaitreya Telugu Padam, was consent exercised? And other people would say, "Well, you can't just—without getting any context...

16:02

Preethi Ramaprasad: speak on that. You need a cultural context and everything." And so it becomes very confusing because when you have the cultural context and you're putting on...

16:14

Preethi Ramaprasad: notions of consent, which are more widely discussed now, there's a lot of pushback and...

16:21

Preethi Ramaprasad: political—you know, there's a lot of pushback. And it's a very difficult space to navigate. And that's what I think the main way for me to think about this is: "Okay, how can my kid learn these songs in a way that...

16:39

Preethi Ramaprasad: feels that she can think critically about the world?" I think that’s a way that keeps bringing me back to this research topic.

16:49

Lalita du Perron: I love that one of the motivators for you to take this kind of unconventional feminist stance in the way that you look at dance is this very traditional, non-feminist role of being a mom.

17:04

Lalita du Perron: Is being a mom non-feminist? I just think it's—there's something—because you're essentially doing what moms have always been supposed to do, which is protect our kids, right?

17:16

Lalita du Perron: So that's what you're doing, but you're reframing that in a way that perhaps is a little bit less traditional, so yay.

17:23

Preethi Ramaprasad: I don't know, I don't know—just questions, just having...

17:28

Lalita du Perron: Questions. Our questions are good. So, let's...

17:34

Lalita du Perron: This is in my paper. It literally says, "Let's talk about consent."

17:39

Lalita du Perron: So, I'm sure—I know—you and I...

17:43

Lalita du Perron: hurdles when we want to talk about consent and "classical" traditions. But the hurdles will be a little different—you as somebody from the diaspora, and me as a white person.

17:56

Lalita du Perron: And one of the things that I've been told is that...

18:00

Lalita du Perron: consent and harassment are kind of foreign imports. And this is not in the notion of, you know, "Valentine's Day is just an American thing." It wasn’t like that. It wasn’t so easy to dismiss. It was really a sense of, "This is both anachronistic and...

18:17

Lalita du Perron: ethnocentric, and you don't know what you're talking about." And I didn't love that part, but, you know, that's—people can say that. It’s perhaps fair. It’s definitely fair to chew on that.

18:29

Lalita du Perron: Because my argument about Tunri would be that consent is just—it's always assumed. And because it's always assumed, it doesn't exist. And then I always go back in my writing to the fact that there is no marital rape in India. And there is a parallel there. Consent is just not an issue.

18:47

Lalita du Perron: Because it's been signed away. And similarly, in our devotion to Krishna...

18:59

Lalita du Perron: it's signed away. Like, who would not want to be loved by Him?

19:19

Preethi Ramaprasad: So, when we talk about the laws of India, it's like—there are so many religions in India. This is one of the things that some of my curatorial work with Nikhil Mandalaparti—this thing called...

19:34

Preethi Ramaprasad: Performing Voices of Bhakti—has helped me… I mean, we knew it before, but it’s helped me realize the extent to which India is so multicultural.

19:43

Preethi Ramaprasad: So when we talk about marital rape in India and...

19:48

Preethi Ramaprasad: yeah, I mean, I wouldn't draw a line to that in Krishna. Like, yeah, they're linked, I’m sure, in some way—yes.

19:56

Lalita du Perron: So I don't make a direct connection at all.

19:57

Preethi Ramaprasad: Of course, yeah, I hear what you're saying. But… yeah, I mean, I...

20:03

Preethi Ramaprasad: It's hard… I don't know the origins of harassment, but a piece comes to mind after you said that. A local Bharatanatyam dancer—Rasika Kumar, who lives not far from Stanford—I think she wouldn’t mind me sharing this because it was a lovely piece...

20:22

Preethi Ramaprasad: ...did this piece about catcalling.

20:28

Lalita du Perron: Mmm.

20:28

Preethi Ramaprasad: Which is so widespread in India. I’m part of the South Asian diaspora, but I have many friends from India, who have immigrated here, and also friends local in India—and catcalling is such a pervasive issue.

20:49

Preethi Ramaprasad: She got someone—I'm forgetting the composer’s name—to compose a piece for her on catcalling. And if I remember correctly, it referenced Krishna in some way. I thought it was so funny, so clever...

21:07

Preethi Ramaprasad: ...to use that format and structure to discuss a very important issue for women today. I think it would be hard for me to find a woman who hasn’t experienced being catcalled.

21:21

Preethi Ramaprasad: So, yeah, I can’t speak to the origins of... like, it would be hard for me to—

21:29

Lalita du Perron: It’s not a South Asian thing.

21:30

Preethi Ramaprasad: Yeah. How could... yeah, but—

21:34

Preethi Ramaprasad: You can see how widespread that experience is, you know? And also in a place that is so multicultural—like, I consider India to be a multicultural place—so how do these experiences...

21:52

Preethi Ramaprasad: ...how do they converge and diverge in a country like that? That’s what fascinates me.

22:01

Lalita du Perron: We’ve talked a lot about the panel we’re working on together with Harshta and Ramya and consent. Let’s talk about some of your other work. I feel like it’s all linked in that you have a very strong desire to question everything.

22:17

Lalita du Perron: Where does that come from?

22:19

Preethi Ramaprasad: Oh god. Yeah... I think... I don't...

22:26

Preethi Ramaprasad: I was just telling someone the other day—it’s not my default. I don’t love debating people, but somehow I end up in that position. But I think my recent endeavors have definitely been a direct result of graduate school—meeting very critical thinkers...

22:52

Preethi Ramaprasad: ...my colleagues, and also my advisors throughout grad school. I wanted an avenue to apply my research that’s not just choreography. I’m definitely working on choreography, that’s happening, but I also wanted a way to...

23:13

Preethi Ramaprasad: ...to apply it in a way that’s not just me dancing. Because part of me dancing is... I wanted to also...

23:24

Preethi Ramaprasad: ...see if I could not visibilize myself. This especially impacted me in 2020—after the murder of George Floyd and the resurgence of the Black Lives Matter movement. I began thinking about my position as a dominant caste woman—my privilege—and I asked: how can I apply...

23:49

Preethi Ramaprasad: ...these things without having to perform them? I don't have to perform everything I like. What are other ways I could move forward? For me, curation was such a radical way out of that. I could get funding, platform artists who are doing critical, amazing work. And it was also a bonus for me, because I got to see...

24:13

Preethi Ramaprasad: ...amazing art that I wanted to see.

24:18

Preethi Ramaprasad: But I'm still dancing. And I’ve found that the way I love dancing most is through a collective—dancing with people.

24:29

Preethi Ramaprasad: Just a plug—some of my friends I've met through dancing collectively—we're performing in September in a show called As You Are. It draws on... you know, how I know about the catcalling thing in more detail is because...

24:49

Preethi Ramaprasad: ...that was one of the things we discussed in our group of colleagues—women, mothers, citizens—whatever we're going through. It became a process-based work, where we did exercises like: "How do you feel when you're jealous?" or "What does rebellion look like?" And the culmination of all that became As You Are, premiering September 12th–14th in Oakland.

25:13

Preethi Ramaprasad: I can share the details. Then in October—October 11th and 12th—it’s the fifth iteration of the festival When I Speak, which I co-curate with my friend and colleague Shruti Abhishek.

25:33

Preethi Ramaprasad: This festival is San Francisco’s first South Asian choreography festival. It began in 2018—I hadn't even started grad school yet—but each year since, you can see how my thinking evolved. I’m trying to approach...

26:03

Preethi Ramaprasad: ...choreography and curation more and more critically. This year, we're featuring Farah Yasmine Sheikh and Nurani Dance Company...

26:15

Preethi Ramaprasad: ...alongside Nikita Shah. Farah’s group will be performing pieces by notable Pakistani poets and musicians—pieces that invoke a sense of nostalgia across South Asia and the diaspora.

26:36

Preethi Ramaprasad: Nikita Shah is a Kalamkari artist. She’ll run a workshop on drawing motifs of your choice. Her work also draws on nostalgia. Some of Nikita’s pieces will appear in Farah’s concert-length work.

26:59

Preethi Ramaprasad: What this does for me is bring the idea of nostalgia through Kathak and Kalamkari—showing connections across the South Asian diaspora, across borders, time, and more. That’s been very exciting.

27:27

Preethi Ramaprasad: Sometimes, as someone who researches and dances, it can be lonely to ask: where's my place? What exactly am I doing? But one place I've found joy is in collective work—both in research and in dance.

27:43

Preethi Ramaprasad: And also through curation. That’s really what fills my cup.

27:49

Lalita du Perron: It's very hard when you're...

27:53

Lalita du Perron: When you're critically assessing something that's...

27:56

Lalita du Perron: ...being handed down. I was thinking about that when you spoke earlier about...

28:03

Lalita du Perron: ...reframing how we think about dance figures and the tropes being performed. I was wondering if there’s less space for that in an oral tradition, since it's always handed down in a certain...

28:20

Lalita du Perron: ...way. But others would say if you write it down, it's even more fixed. So I don't know. We don't have to think about it now, but it's something I want to keep thinking about. Because there is definitely a sense that when people explain...

28:35

Lalita du Perron: ...classical music and dance to me—which happens a lot—

28:40

Lalita du Perron: ...people come out with things that I, as a researcher, know to be profoundly untrue. And it's not always easy to push back. A, as a white person, but B, sometimes it's just not appropriate—like, you're at an arangetram, you don't need footnotes.

28:58

Lalita du Perron: So it's... it's classical. That word already makes me uncomfortable. Ancient, traditional—all of these ideas.

29:08

Preethi Ramaprasad: "Ancient"—yeah, ancient is a big one.

29:11

Lalita du Perron: Big one. And... and Hindu. People might not use that word, but it's definitely implied.

29:18

Lalita du Perron: How does nostalgia then sit? Because that feels—actually, that's very much part of that group of words I just mentioned.

29:26

Preethi Ramaprasad: Oh, yeah. It's deliberate. I'm glad you noticed that.

29:30

Lalita du Perron: Yeah, so talk about nostal—how do we reframe, how do we queer nostalgia?

29:34

Preethi Ramaprasad: Oh, yeah, that’s exciting for me. I’m glad you noticed that—only cool people like you notice stuff like that! My colleague and I, and the artists involved, are definitely seeing nostalgia as a method.

29:53

Preethi Ramaprasad: Not just as a thing that exists between us, but as an approach. And I have to thank my colleague Irvin—who gave me that phrase, “nostalgia as method”—he’s a colleague from grad school. I think I can bring everyone to the table through: what am I nostalgic about?

30:18

Preethi Ramaprasad: As a South Asian, I’m talking bourbon biscuits, old records of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, chai, and classic Bollywood like Hum Aapke Hain Koun—some of the real classics.

30:35

Lalita du Perron: I love that, but okay, yeah.

30:37

Preethi Ramaprasad: Yeah, and I can bring you to the table with some of these. But then, once you're there, and you hear the song, and see it performed in a slightly different way, and learn a different story behind it—you learn what led to the lyrics—and all of a sudden…

30:59

Preethi Ramaprasad: My notion of India, or South Asia, or the diaspora, it shifts just a little. And for me, that is something really valuable. So I think nostalgia is a method. I don’t know if I’m queering nostalgia—I don’t think I’m good enough for that—but I think I’m…

31:20

Preethi Ramaprasad: I think I’m using nostalgia in a way that—I hope—people leave with something more than just the memory they brought to the show. That they leave with something more.

31:39

Lalita du Perron: It sounds absolutely amazing. So When I Speak is going to be in San Francisco, October 12th and 13th.

31:46

Preethi Ramaprasad: 11th and 12th.

31:47

Lalita du Perron: October 11th and 12th, that's important! I’ll put a link in the show notes. Preethi, what's next for you? You're doing so much.

31:58

Preethi Ramaprasad: Ugh, what’s next? Thank you. I'm not doing as much as you—you're so busy with CSA, and I love going to all the events that help me look at South Asia in a new, critical way. What’s next for me is staying in practice and creating another new piece.

32:22

Preethi Ramaprasad: It’s in Bharatanatyam, but again, it’s about reframing something I’ve already learned. I’m really excited about where this is going.

32:31

Preethi Ramaprasad: And of course, the number one thing on my docket is editing my paper for Madison.

32:37

Lalita du Perron: Yes, yes—oh my god, there’s nothing like…

32:40

Lalita du Perron: Doing a panel at a conference, and then that deadline is looming, and I’ve got a couple of other commitments, and it's like—how is it already September? We're recording this in mid-August, and I don’t know what happened to June or July.

32:54

Preethi Ramaprasad: Exactly! I’m looking at it on my calendar, and it's just getting closer and closer. I need to get on that.

33:03

Lalita du Perron: Anyone listening who's presenting at the Madison conference—or any conference—will totally relate. Like, I said yes six months ago, and now it's a month away.

33:14

Preethi Ramaprasad: Yeah, what am I gonna say? Exactly!

33:18

Lalita du Perron: How am I gonna sound good? I mean, there's so much…

33:23

Lalita du Perron: I think most academics—well, some are blessed without much self-doubt and are just prolific, right? They write book after book, paper after paper. And I’m just like, every word I write I question—Is this the right way to say it? Am I the right person to say it? Blah, blah, blah. But I think most of us go through that.

33:46

Lalita du Perron: That continuous cycle of self-doubt, digging yourself out of that hole, then sinking back down again—that’s the process of academic writing. At least, that’s how I experience it.

33:58

Preethi Ramaprasad: I feel very vindicated that you said that—that is my life. So that’s normal? That’s a normal process?

34:05

Lalita du Perron: Normal. We are just like everybody else.

34:09

Preethi Ramaprasad: Oh my god, yeah. It’s quite horrid. You mentioned this earlier—let’s talk about it now. The life cycle of a dance performance and an academic paper is so different. In dance, you get immediate gratification. With an academic paper, sure, a conference gives you something, but from writing it…

34:34

Preethi Ramaprasad: …to publishing it—it’s wild. When that idea is fresh in your head and you put it on paper, that’s exciting. But by the time it’s edited and published, it feels so divorced from me. I don’t even recognize who wrote it. It feels completely different from how I think now.

34:57

Preethi Ramaprasad: It’s just such an interestingly different life cycle. And yeah, I’ll be thinking more about that.

35:07

Lalita du Perron: I love this. So what we’ve established at the end of this podcast episode is that the arts are not like the academy.

35:15

Preethi Ramaprasad: No, no—I can definitely attest to that.

35:18

Lalita du Perron: Friends of the podcast, thank you for listening, and thank you for basically listening in on the kind of conversation Preethi and I would normally have over chai. Chai was missing today, I apologize—we’re on Zoom. But yes, I actually have coffee. It’s kind of like chai, I guess.

35:36

Lalita du Perron: It’s great talking to you. Thank you so much. I’m super excited about everything you’re doing, and I will definitely come check out your curated and performance work in the fall. And of course, I’ll see you in Madison. Thank you for making time for us today.

35:52

Preethi Ramaprasad: Likewise, thank you—always a pleasure.

35:55

Lalita du Perron: Listeners, please follow and subscribe to the show. Follow us on Instagram at @CSAStanford to stay updated on all the events at the Center for South Asia and the podcast. As always, thanks to Soham Shiva for our intro and outro music, and Manar Fleifel-Keniar for post-production.

[Outro music]